Curse

Bright Star Shine · Apr 23, 2011, 02:27 AM // 02:27

The entire irony of this thread is that people who hate SF are calling this thread a QQ thread, whilst the only ones QQ'ing in it are them (and the OP sort of).

SF is there, live and let live tbh.

All you people that keep claiming SF makes you a god and virtually invincible without using a single braincell, I'd like to see you actually do some of the hard stuff. Full trenchpull in DoA comes to mind. It still takes some skill and knowledge of the game, it isn't like it used to be, being actually invincible. The more abused skill in this scenario is still Shroud tbh, which is way more powerful than Shadowform. The damage cap makes it a pretty useless skill to farm anything significant. Ranger and Ele are more viable options is FoW or UW for example.

To quote a wise post that was posted here earlier: "Anet baked the cake, it's up to us whether or not we want to eat it or not."

Our Virus · Apr 23, 2011, 04:02 AM // 04:02

The only reason this skill shud stay exactly how it is (IMO) is so every prof has an equal chance to farm places with it. I like being able to vat farm on my para, and I'm sure the non-sin terra tanks appreciate the ability to use it as well

Bright Star Shine · Apr 23, 2011, 04:50 AM // 04:50

I understand how it's unfair on a Para, but non-sin terra's are stronger than actual ssins. Ele's are stronger with Sliver (60dmg sliver ftw) or Ranger (Whirling says hi) also, any prof can keep up SF with Deadly Paradox, although Para and Warr will have energy trouble.

loshon · Apr 23, 2011, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Is it possible to get 60 dmg from Sliver? I thought SF capped your dmg...

Bright Star Shine · Apr 23, 2011, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Obsidian Flesh terra's^^

reaper with no name · Apr 23, 2011, 08:14 AM // 08:14

SF was (and still is) a very bad thing.

Why is maintainable spell immunity bad? Because it nullifies it's own counter (enchantment removal). That would be like a skill for melee characters that gives them the ability to ignore all blocking, snaring, and miss chances indefinitely.

Shadow Form gave people the ability to take the game's most difficult content and trivialize it. It allowed people to solo almost the entire game.

These things are bad. The fact that some people enjoyed it doesn't change that. There are some people who would enjoy having bamph. But would you truly, honestly want a skill like that in the game?

Of course not. It would destroy all purpose in the game.

Shadow Form did the same thing.

Even in it's current state, the skill is a very bad thing. It remains as a tank skill. Tanking is one of the worst game mechanics ever conceived. The effective result of tanking is the ability for players to manipulate the behavior of the monsters. Once they have that ability, the only way the monsters can possibly challenge the players is by being absurdly powerful. If you don't make it so, then the party that tanks breezes through the game. If you do make them overwhelmingly strong, then players now require a tank simply to survive. Either way, alternative strategies are rendered pointless (if not outright unworkable).

This sort of thing should not be encouraged. If anything, Shadow Form requires a further nerf; one making it unmaintainable or removing it's spell immunity.

/notsigned

TSS · Apr 23, 2011, 08:29 AM // 08:29

I made my sin when factions first came out. I've had to deal with SF being godly and being crap (relatively speaking) so I know how you feel, but to be perfectly honest, the fact I just have to bring SF/Shroud/DP is a lot better than the one that had a 60s rchg time. I'm not crazy about the damage cap still, but whatever, it was incredibly broken way back when. I remember when we used to have use DP + Arcane Echo to maintain SF. We survived. If anything, the new SF is more challenging to use.

Also as Spiritz said, the new SF limits the amount of "mindless" farming that can be done. Vaettirs are pretty much not even worth it unless you want mes tomes or a lot of golds to ID/sell, and trust me they dry up after a few runs (survivor too, but thats not really something you can repeat over and over). Speed Clears, which are pretty much all I do on my sin require lots of practice, granted I can pretty much do SoOSC, KathSC, BogSC and OozeSC with my eyes closed, it took a fair amount of runs before it became easy to do. Others like RavenSC, FmawSC etc require more attention and trust me tons of scrubs kill teams with these. Besides, with the new SF you have to buy shields with mods and its fun for collecting cool shield skins.

Quote:

Why is maintainable spell immunity bad? Because it nullifies it's own counter (enchantment removal).

Lift Enchantment and a few other skills out there allow enchants to be removed through SF.

Honestly all the arguing over SF being too powerful or not powerful enough is pointless. One side is obviously going to say "not powerful enough, because I can't solo ToPK like I used to!" and the other side is going to say "why should one profession be able to solo the entire game?" Just accept it. Its there, its not going anywhere. I think this game is dead enough to the point where we can just accept it, create a sin, farm the hell out of certain zones, and buy our nice weapons before GW2 comes out.

Missing HB · Apr 23, 2011, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

....

Actually i think players wouldn't mind if shadow form was only a tank build and not a damage or solo clear areas one... It would be quite fair and there wouldn't be epic record times for some areas...

That's all these multi-abilities builds that kinda ruined the game in my opinion and made many other builds look useless :
- SF in PvE ( quoted above)
- RoJ in JQ ( speed turtle/cap shrines easily/save targets easily)
- Dervish recently in PvP ( regen health/big damage/perma cripple; etc.... basically a primal rage warrior with bigger damage , with vigorous on him and with no condition)

Coast · Apr 23, 2011, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

SF was (and still is) a very bad thing.

Why is maintainable spell immunity bad? Because it nullifies it's own counter (enchantment removal). That would be like a skill for melee characters that gives them the ability to ignore all blocking, snaring, and miss chances indefinitely.

Shadow Form gave people the ability to take the game's most difficult content and trivialize it. It allowed people to solo almost the entire game.

These things are bad. The fact that some people enjoyed it doesn't change that. There are some people who would enjoy having bamph. But would you truly, honestly want a skill like that in the game?

Of course not. It would destroy all purpose in the game.

Shadow Form did the same thing.

Even in it's current state, the skill is a very bad thing. It remains as a tank skill. Tanking is one of the worst game mechanics ever conceived. The effective result of tanking is the ability for players to manipulate the behavior of the monsters. Once they have that ability, the only way the monsters can possibly challenge the players is by being absurdly powerful. If you don't make it so, then the party that tanks breezes through the game. If you do make them overwhelmingly strong, then players now require a tank simply to survive. Either way, alternative strategies are rendered pointless (if not outright unworkable).

This sort of thing should not be encouraged. If anything, Shadow Form requires a further nerf; one making it unmaintainable or removing it's spell immunity.

/notsigned

there is alrdy such thing

Bright Star Shine · Apr 23, 2011, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

there is alrdy such thing

Yep, was thinking the same thing when I read that. Asuran Scan says hi. Not so unfair anymore now, is it?

Essence Snow · Apr 23, 2011, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

Yep, was thinking the same thing when I read that. Asuran Scan says hi. Not so unfair anymore now, is it?

True, but since Ascan is a title skill...it's null-n-void. If foes could use Ascan against you, then it would count. Since they cannot....it's a moot point.

Bright Star Shine · Apr 23, 2011, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

True, but since Ascan is a title skill...it's null-n-void. If foes could use Ascan against you, then it would count. Since they cannot....it's a moot point.

Asuran scan is a 5sec recharge skill. With r0 it lasts 9secs with r10 it lasts 12. You can wrap it, so it being a title skill means nothing.

There is 1 foe that uses Shadowform as well (Afflicted Assassins) and their AI is so stupid that they barely use it anyway, so I don't get the point about foes not being able to us Ascan.

Swingline · Apr 23, 2011, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bright Star Shine

The more abused skill in this scenario is still Shroud tbh, which is way more powerful than Shadowform.

I have been saying shroud is the other half of the problem. It's so powerful for a regular skill but shadowform is the one with a gold border so people only see that..

chuckles79 · Apr 25, 2011, 04:46 PM // 16:46

The problem that I had with SF in it's original form, is that it transformed the role of the assassin from a quick, heavy damage spiker, yet squishy; into the God Tank.

Obsidian Flesh and Spellbreaker both came with conditions on them that didn't make them God skills. Sf allowed single players to clear elite areas solo.

Even 600/smite soloing req 1-2 heroes and a lot of attention. I forgot how many times I saw them fail.

Let me put it this way, I would be all for a return to SF's original functionality, on the condition that it ends if you do damage.

That would end the current SC meta, maintaining the popularity of SF runners and tanks; while discouraging abuse of the skill and assuring greater team variety.

That would cure two big QQ's on the forums.

chuckles79 · Apr 25, 2011, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lithril Ashwalker

well it doesnt necessarily need a NERF....
maybe put to something assassin can only use and remove the damage cap...or add an effect:

same srt and same casting time and same duration except

make it like the mark of insecurity and disabling non assassin skills for 10 seconds...
this will stop the massive seconadary sin farming...monks wont abuse it lol, memsers wont either...

wars = defy pain(slight nerf still works
dervs =vow of silence + recent update=mad tankers
monks= spellbreaker-> should have stuck with it
elementalists = obsidian flesh / Mist form> plenty of energy fueling for u...use mantra
ranger....(needs a buff/primary ranger SF type of skill)
assassin = shadow form
mesmer = needs a sf type of skill

if they just gave a duplicate pprimary sf type of skill to each class ...no oen would QQ about farming...no oen would abuse the shadowform...everyone can solo :/

Your solution is to give everyone but rits and paras their own god-mode?

The game is built around team-based mechanics. There are literally thousands of single-player RPGs; but people buy an MMORPG and all the campaigns+expansion and complain about the notion of forming a team.
You have 7 heroes now, but some people can't even stand the idea of losing loot that never existed.

I think PvE assassins should honestly be grateful that SF still works, despite it being more difficult and requiring greater skill. If it's too infuriating I recommend playing any one of the 7 other professions and exploring new aspects of the game beyond farming armbraces and UWSC's.

Aly Lightningstorm · Apr 26, 2011, 06:35 PM // 18:35

And if people have done all that ten times in a row, what else is there to do?

Why are speed clears so bad anyway? I always hear that it's bad, it's an outrage, it's blasphemy against the gods and unbreakable moral laws of guild wars, but it's never explained exactly WHY that is the case. So, what is it?

You think SCs don't require teamwork? What are you comparing them to? They take the most teamwork out of anything in PVE. In most areas, teamwork consists of letting your heros follow you and use their skills. In SCs, you have very specific things you need to accomplish to help your team beat the area.

You think assassins just solo everything by themselves without any help? That's not true either. In UW, a sin needs to work with an ele bonder/healer to survive. In DOA and FOW, they usually work directly with a group of spikers, balling things up and moving mobs around.

Almost all of what the SC/Shadow Form haters say is just wrong. So.. what exactly is the problem with it? A lot of people seem to hate it. Not sure why.

I mean, it doesn't even affect you. Why go around trying to force your view of how a game should be played down everyone else's throat?

Quote:

Even 600/smite soloing req 1-2 heroes and a lot of attention. I forgot how many times I saw them fail.

You've never seen a perma sin fail at their job before? Seriously? Maybe you should watch them more often. Because they do fail plenty. Shadow form is not god mode by any means. There is a whole lot of things that can kill you easily. Like leech signet, distracting shot, touch skills, strong melee attackers, knockdowns, running out of energy...

Quote:

That would end the current SC meta

Or maybe not?

People said the exact same thing last time shadow form got nerfed. And what do you know, speed clears are still happening...

Bobby Sox · Apr 27, 2011, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Without taking a side here, I'm going to mention something that has suprizingly not been brought up yet in this thread. If Shadow Form returned to it's old state with the condition of ending on dealing damage or the likes, there's still the possibility of killing enemies with degeneration and life steal.

Elnino · Apr 27, 2011, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aly Lightningstorm

Why are speed clears so bad anyway?

It's not that speedclears are bad or anything. It's just that certain skills (like shadowform) have made speedclears too efficient. Shadowform in its past and present form is too efficient at completing high-end parts of the game and it's use in speed clears have made all other forms of completing high-end areas inferior (if not obsolete).

Anet (and I'm presuming the general playerbase) always wanted this game to have large variation. Where it be, how people complete certain aspects of the game, the skills you use, the armor you wear, the formats you prefer etc etc. The thing about speed clears (and the overpowered skills used for them) is that it is simply the best possible way to complete high-end areas. By being the best, it has made every other method weaker and undesirable. This reduces the variation that was supposed to be present in this game.

When something is so powerful to the extent that it has become the primary choice by a large portion of the playerbase and making all other alternatives considerably weaker, it is a sign that it is too efficient at doing what it does and is in need of a nerf.

This can also be seen in the recent dervish update. Dervish's in pvp are too efficient at doing what they do and can outplay both warriors and assassins with little to know weaknesses. They too are in need of a nerf.

If you watched the interview with John Stumme by Wartower (for the Embark beach update) he explained the reasoning behing the Asura Scan and BuH nerfs and I think his explanation fits very well with why Shadowform and speedclears are overpowered and need to be toned down.

You can find the interview here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO5xAGxfCKU if you haven't already watched it. (It's during the latter half of the interview)

Aly Lightningstorm · Apr 27, 2011, 09:49 AM // 09:49

If it's true that shadow form is too efficient, what do you think about skills like UA, SoS and Panic? They are very efficient at what they do, and there isn't really any substitute for them. If you want strong healing and an instant res, you take UA. If you want lots of spirits you take SoS. If you want mass interruption you take Panic. If you want cheap and maintainable spell protection, you use shadow form. I don't see why any of this is bad. It's good that the game has unique and powerful skills like UA, SoS, Panic and Shadow Form.

Quote:

Shadowform in its past and present form is too efficient at completing high-end parts of the game and it's use in speed clears have made all other forms of completing high-end areas inferior (if not obsolete).

See, you take it for granted that speed clears are a bad thing.

Assuming what you said is true, why does that mean it should be nerfed? Maybe alternatives like Obsidian Flesh, Vow of Silence and Spell Breaker should be buffed instead? So more classes can tank in speed clears?

Also, I don't see why people should have to spend two and a half hours in FoW when they could finish it in 20 minutes. Inefficiency doesn't seem like a good thing to me. Why is it good?

If inefficiency is good, why not force everyone to play as hamstorm warriors or healing breeze monks?

Because it's NOT a good thing.

Missing HB · Apr 27, 2011, 12:45 PM // 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aly Lightningstorm

Also, I don't see why people should have to spend two and a half hours in FoW when they could finish it in 20 minutes. Inefficiency doesn't seem like a good thing to me. Why is it good?

Let's take it on the opposite. Do you believe it's normal that players should complete an elite area in 20mn when some missions are much longer ??

I agree on one hand that some areas are a bit tough and time wasting ( i.e new UW which can be very long for some teams) , but 20-30mn is really too low...
I'm pretty sure that if SF was nerfed , thanks to consets and all stuff people would still complete it in about an hour and it would be a good time for me..;

Just to say , speed clears aren't especially a bad thing ( anyway , every game has it's speed mode ) but there's a too big diference in time between:
- 1 "balanced " team doing it with no consets , nothing at all
- 1 Speedclear team , abusing with consets

Getting from 2-3hours to 1 hour would be fine , getting from 2-3 hours to 30mn isn't at all a good way to do..

side note : long time ago , people were still proud of finishing FoW even on a long time .. noone was arrogant like today saying " gah , 32mn you guys fail "